Sebastian (00:02):

You are listening to the Insightful Connections podcast. Our guest today is AJ Keirans. AJ is the founder of Good Human Partners. Founded in 2023, Good Human Partners is the culmination of over two decades in the market research industry, having firsthand experience across roles and departments. GHP has built its business on service and finding the right solution. They're not one size fits all and truly believe in the work and the trust it takes to be a true partner. Their strength is in service and they work to earn your business one project at a time. Prior to founding Good Human Partners, AJ was web design and system support specialist at SSI, Lead, Survey Programming for North America, also at SSI and Senior Sales Director at Critical Mix prior to becoming Vice President of sales at Disco. Fun fact, I learned about AJ just before this interview, is that AJ was previously named Best Local Radio Personality at 88.5 WVOF by the Fairfield Weekly. And I'm now thinking I'm, I'm gonna get upstaged here on, on the podcast, but I'm truthfully very excited to be having you on today, AJ. Thanks for being, here.

AJ (01:01):

It's a pleasure.

AJ (01:25):

Those bring back memories, 88.5 WVOF, the voice of Fairfield. Yeah, many great years.

Sebastian (01:32):

Love it. I love it. And I think, uh, uh, an added benefit to me is that your audio equipment's all very dialed in. So very much appreciate that.

AJ (01:39):

I, I listened to the previous episodes and the bar was <laugh>, and I was like, all right, got your dust off of the, the mic. And I was excited to, uh, try to match your, your quality. So I was, I was really impressed. Uh, everything I listened to so far has been awesome, so

Sebastian (01:53):

Love it. Love it. So AJ, the first question I'd, I'd love to lead with is how did you find yourself in market research and how does that account for where you are today?

AJ (02:02):

So my journey, I, I would say is, is pretty unique in the space. I didn't start off in market research and I, I don't think many folks that I've spoken to, you know, at least of of my generation, started with the goal of ending up in market research. My first job outta university, I was a corporate trainer, so my job was to train people in programming languages, visual basics, c plus plus Java. So I am a kind of a, a tech nerd, you know, it guy, you know, at heart I'm not as good with fixing computers as I used to be. So sorry mom, but I was pretty young, immature. I don't think I had it all it all together. And so right outta university, working 80 plus hours a week was pretty intense. And my roommate worked at the original survey sampling. I would come home completely distraught and, and burned out, and him and all of his colleagues would be at our, our house.

AJ (02:50):

And it just seemed to have a lot more fun. I wasn't fully sure what they did. I had taken some, you know, a market research class, uh, as part of the business school, well, at Fairfield University where I went to school. And just one day I said, can you take my resume in? I was like, I just wanna work with you there. It just seems like you're, you're happy. And so that very early on I realized the a life work balance was something that was, uh, was important to me. He was in sales, they didn't have any sales roles available, but they did need somebody who had tech experience to build out an intranet and do some support. So that's really where I started my career. I did the web design, I did the corporate sites, I did the intranet. Eventually I worked on the data, the backend from, you know, Unix and things of that nature.

AJ (03:33):

And so I really got a good understanding of research and data. And that was at a time when phone was kind of the, the end all be all being kind of tech savvy. IAOL and email to date myself was becoming popular. I remember suggesting, you know, to my boss that, Hey, I think that there's gonna be a new way to intake data. We should start doing these online surveys. They laughed at me. They were like, oh, that's cute. We're gonna stay with the phone. You know, years later I would lead the survey programming team. I would lead the client meetings and really saw where things were going and made the leap about 10 years into my career, into sales, where, you know, then I was helping to sell sample and, and solutions. And so having all that kind of hands-on experience, you know, being a programmer and working with the data really allowed me to be a, a different type of salesperson and not just be a order taker, throw the, the bid over the, over the wall and just hope it magically gets done. So that really evolved up until, you know, last year I was laid off, which is, uh, you know, given the, the climate now is, uh, unfortunately a more common occurrence for folks, decided to double down and invest in myself. And that's how we started. Good human partners.

Sebastian (04:44):

So one of the things that, you know, is really interesting to me there is, it sounds like you kind of had a front row seat for the transition kind of from caddy. You know how I think, you know, everything was really getting done up until probably actually more recently than than we might, you know, often acknowledge to more online driven data collection. And I'm curious, you know, kind of what your takeaways were from that transition. You know, how did that maybe improve the industry and and what were some of the, the consequences of that change that we've seen?

AJ (05:14):

Yeah, it's really interesting 'cause I, I vividly remember the first panel we had. It was called Survey Spot. It was a cute little dalmatian dog. There's some photos of me dressed as, as a survey spot, you know, kind of the thing of the university mascot with a big head. But at that time, we were charging clients to send emails. Not the completes, not the, you're not a CPI, it was per send because of the, there wasn't as many email addresses that were available and it was a really high amount of money in comparison to now what people will pay for a complete. And it was really mind boggling at the time. It was just kind of like, I think we had nothing to compare it to. It was really this new way of making money and it was just kind of, it was shocking. Even the tools at the time weren't really overly complex with allowing for complex logic or piping or anything like that.

AJ (06:04):

I know the tool we had built in house, everything had to be on one page. And so to see that evolve was really cool to, now where we are, I think is that email, uh, is so abundant. People have multiple email addresses. You have an address that you use for spam or purchasing or mailing lists, and it's gone the other way, you know, with data quality. And I think that it, it's become, it's just become more of a concern for the industry. I think that we really, you know, there is a great group of people and organizations that are really focused on it, but I think that it is a concern and there's, you know, two schools of thought. I know there's folks that are actively working to, to fix it, but part of my concern is that there's now revenue streams that are tied to flagging bad data. And the now businesses need there to be bad data in order for them to make revenue. And that, that's a little bit of a concern. 'cause it's not really saying, Sebastian is somebody, I don't wanna take my survey, but you're not telling AJ that Sebastian shouldn't take his survey. It's like, well, he didn't come to my party, he didn't cause any problems here. But you're still kind of allowed to still kind of freely live in the, in the town, so to speak.

Sebastian (07:17):

And it's totally cool if you don't have an answer, but I know that this is kind of one of the biggest issues in the industry right now is, is the concerns that exist about sample quality. I was listening to your, one of the interviews you did when you were, you were vp VP sales at, at disco this morning. And uh, it's funny, it was the early days of the pandemic when you were recording it, I think, which to blow everybody's mind is like half a decade ago. That's correct. <laugh>, right? Yeah. <laugh>, you know, <laugh>, it's, you know, it's been a while, but even back then, many of the things that you were leaning into and talking about were the ways in which a lot of panels, how the sausage gets made is, is really obscured. Right. And, you know, there's a lot of, through acquisitions and things being stuck together, a lot of unknowns, right? And, and, you know, this has become sort of a, an issue and, and delivering the high quality sample is I think kind of one of the key things that everybody's really trying to lean into right now. Now, the question that I have for you is, you know, as an industry, what do you think are some of the solutions that we can employ to try and correct some of the issues that we're seeing today with sample quality?

AJ (08:18):

Well, I think one of the things is that there's not one solution for everything. I think each of the solutions that are out there are very powerful. But even at one of my, you know, previous companies and speaking to others, if you take some of the same tools and put them against the same data sets, they find different flags. And so I think that what's happening now with the, the DII, the data integrity initiative that's been led by the Insights Association and they brought in other organizations like SMR and you know, several other sample con, et cetera, I think that's really a good move forward. I think previously everybody was working in silos and right, just like an artist, you look at the sunset, you look at the, you know, the sky and we would all paint something different. I'm not saying I'm an artist, but I've just used that before and it's helpful.

AJ (09:05):

But it, so it's this idea of how they approach it. And I think now what I've seen is a lot more folks, you know, Kareem, who's wonderful and other folks are willing to share this information publicly. Obviously they're not sharing maybe all of their, their scripts or the, the code they're using, but they're bringing the horse of the water and they're really showing, okay, this is how you do it, this is what I would do, this is how I would do it. And you have to have it be a multi-tiered solution. You have to assume, you know, in the programming, you know, the, the checks that are in place and in the data sets, how the questionnaire is written. And then also with the bill of rights that they're working on for the consumer or the survey taker is, was the survey poorly written in a way that was just kind of abusing somebody and not really, you know, taking their time into consideration and the realities of that.

AJ (09:54):

Also, they might be tired, the question you might ask them might not have a logical answer. And so they're not trying to be malicious or the minutiae that you're asking them is not something that's top of mind for them. And so it has to really be a multi-tiered approach. So I'm not trying to skirt by saying I don't have the answer, but I think that you have to really think about it from every level. And as a service provider at the sample, everyone should have a way that they're doing it. That when that conversation comes up, they're saying, these are the things that we do. And a lot of those solutions can overlay each other and support each other. The extreme of that, which I've seen is that there are folks who just don't believe that some of these people are able to be found.

AJ (10:32):

And so you also have to come to the table with like integrity and honesty and transparency about your perspective on things. Because if you're just trying to shoot everything down as being bad data quality, then everything's gonna be bad data quality. So we've had that a few times where it's, oh, these open ends are too good. Okay, we'll bring in another partner. Oh, those aren't good enough. It's like, why don't you tell me what you want them to say <laugh>, and then we'll go from there. And so that also happens also, it's kind of, we've come a long way, but sometimes folks are, can be stubborn. And so I think that communication and being open to new ways of doing things is really important.

Sebastian (11:09):

Yeah, no, I, it is, just to echo what you're saying, I've found myself in a couple of situations where it's kind of the, the same thing where confidence in data is shaken for somebody that you're working with. And I think it can be such a challenging situation because like you pointed out, when you are ready to see that the data's all fake, it's it <laugh>, it's easy for it to look that way, right? The open ends can be too bad, or the open ends can be too good. And where exactly is the believable medium where you accept that they're real people that qualified can be very difficult to tease out. I recruit qualitative studies. Most of my partners are agencies in space, right? And once you have that concern introduced, it's very hard to assuage. And I just think to myself like, if this is how we're looking at each other as partners within the agencies, how can our clients potentially be looking at, at our data as well, right? If this is the degree of confidence we have in each other, then, you know, how do we project confidence outside the industry to the people who are ultimately paying for these insights? I think that touches on how significant of an issue this is, right? And how potentially damaging,

AJ (12:10):

Right? Because what I like about Qual, and this is one of the things I've really come to appreciate is it's a conversation. And so a lot of times I think with Open Ends and quant, it's this idea that this person who's taking this survey may be in between their feeding their family or on the train or wherever they are that they need to write this verbose, you know, thesis level answer to a question. And a lot of times that that's not how people talk or how do they engage with each other. And so it's kind of, oh, this, that, and the other. So it's, it's interesting, I mean, obviously we have the obvious things of chat GBT and, and ai, and I think it's super smart where, you know, some firms now are doing, they're using the, you know, the properties of seeing how much time was spent in the open end field and you know, kind of from when information was put in from a second perspective, like the copy paste and disenabling that. So there's a lot of cool tools out there, but if we want to have a conversation and learn about people, sometimes when people leave the office, they don't want to have to talk, talk like they're, you know, a college professor or I don't know. Some of my favorite professors weren't necessarily the ones who spoke down to me. Good conversations don't always happen using the the biggest words.

Sebastian (13:19):

So AJ one of the things that, you know, you and I were chatting about before we got started today was I think kind of what you've learned about the power of small businesses in the industry and, and the contribution that they have to make. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about that.

AJ (13:33):

So I've always wanted to be a, a business owner. I, I tried some other things, like I mentioned I the podcast and, you know, I, previous life, I, I managed a, a band and I've always tried to kind of think outside the box and be creative, but once you get a family, it gets, it gets a little risky. You know, I've got two sons and a, you know, a wife and we have a mortgage. And as the artists would be telling me that when they would hear about things, exposure doesn't pay the bills. And so I think that there was a, a network of folks that I've been able to lean on and who have looked out for me and, and championed, you know, by giving me feedback. We have regular kind of check-in calls because it can be pretty lonely too, you know, being by yourself as a small business owner.

AJ (14:16):

But what I've learned is that small businesses really look out for each other and there's a genuine sense of caring. And I think some of that comes from the qual side of the industry with, you know, specific moderators having levels of, you know, expertise and folks saying, well, that might not be good for, for my business, but I know so and so who's really great at that. Or they're bilingual or reach out to this person. And so the idea of good human partners is finding the best people, best partners for the job that doesn't have any kind of agenda. So they might be more expensive, it might be longer to work with them, they might have these other things, but if they're the best for the job and I'm trying to do the best job for my client, that's usually where I start from. And so I love small businesses.

AJ (15:04):

I think that when I'm trying to decide what conferences to go to or where to go, I look to see what other small businesses are going there because now that I'm responsible for paying for those tickets, it's not as like, oh cool, marketing send me and I can just go wherever I want. And I have this unlimited, if anyone's listening, I don't have a unlimited expense account, but you know what I mean, like <laugh> just kind of that, that freedom that maybe in the past I took for granted. So I think when you have to decide where every dollar goes, it's nice to have that. And as I said before, from a mental health perspective, I think going to these events solo has become a little more overwhelming for me than I really expected in the past. And so knowing there's folks there that I can lean on and kind of, uh, check in with to feel safe at times has been really great. And so, yeah,

Sebastian (15:51):

Just to touch on that, I mean, I, I see a real resonance with the name good human, and it sounds like what you connect people with is good humans, right? Am I picking up what you're putting down there? Yeah,

AJ (16:01):

I think that started when I used to do a podcast called the the 16 ounce Canvas, the Art of Craft Beer. We had been pretty successful with any beer podcast, you need merch, so of course beer glasses, who doesn't want another beer glass in their, you know, in their cabinet. And originally we were just gonna have to say the art of craft beer. It was right before the pandemic hit and then the pandemic hit and we were about to go to, to print. We had an artist in Maine, Ryan Adams, who's incredible. And I kind of thought, you know, one of the weird things of the pandemic was that our industry didn't really close down. We actually flourished. Yeah. And so there was this reality of people who were struggling, you know, I was seeing it with my kids, with school, my wife as a teacher.

AJ (16:42):

I was seeing, you know, people with jobs that just were getting, were losing their jobs. And so the idea of asking people for money, uh, especially during that time, felt awkward to me. And so we decided I didn't really need the money, who could use the money. And Ryan and I had some local businesses in Maine that we had in common. And so originally the idea was, okay, we're gonna use it as a fundraiser and we're gonna give all the proceeds to these three businesses. It wasn't gonna be a lot of money, but it might help, you know, the staff buy groceries or help with rent or something like that. And right around that time, George Floyd was murdered. And so again, it felt like, okay, like what can we do? And so instead of doing the art of craft beer, I had been using being a human as kind of a, a tagline.

AJ (17:24):

It's a nicer way of saying, you know, don't be a, you know, and it really resonated with people I think around that time, you know, with, you know, empathy and checking in with folks. You'd have a scheduled meeting with somebody and say, is today still a good time? You know, 'cause those days things could change overnight. A family member could be sick or in the hospital and trying to sell somebody's sample, you know, while I needed to hit a quota wasn't really like a life important thing. And so we decided to increase the supply of the glasses Legal Defense fund was the additional donation. We had it say, be a good human. And it really kind of took off from there. And it's something I've proudly been using. I've seen other folks use it, referring to others. And the idea of good is that we're off flawed.

AJ (18:08):

You know, not no one's perfect, but that we're striving just to be better. And you can be better in your business and in your life. And in doing so you can support others. Again, the small businesses, you know, if I have a choice, I'll always choose a small business to partner with over a machine. And again, it's that life work balance. This last year as a small business owner has been the busiest of my life, but has been the most rewarding, um, a more present partner, father. And, you know, we still get to do fun things. I can work from wherever I want in the world. You know, we went to Iceland and I was working, you know, in the back of our tour Guide Van. And so it really kind of is just a mantra that helps me make better decisions and, and choices in, in the path of life. But it also is that like, I'm not perfect and I'm gonna make mistakes, but it's how you treat people and the people you choose to work with are tied to that as well. You know, obviously I love technology, but still you need a humans to run the machine, so to speak. So it has that kind of duality to it.

Sebastian (19:07):

Love it. And you're killing it, man. So glad to hear that everything, everything's going off and off. It's, you know, it's rare to hear somebody say, my company's doing well and, you know, my work life balance is great and I'm present for my family. Like, kudos, kudos. 'cause yeah,

AJ (19:20):

They go to sleep and I work, I work, I mean, I work, you know, and I work and I, I can't turn my brain off probably like you, when we're at the soccer field, I'm thinking, okay, as soon as we get home, but if I <laugh> if I block off meetings and, and what have you, I'm now becoming a morning person, which I never thought was possible. And so that's been good too. So, yeah, we'll see.

Sebastian (19:38):

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. AJ, what keeps you motivated?

AJ (19:41):

What keeps me motivated? Um, I think that inspiring others I think is really important. I think that showing my kids that there's a lot more opportunity and possibilities and just to kind of try to be your, your best version of yourself to work hard and, you know, use some of that to, I'm really big into nonprofits and trying to use my, my position of privilege to, you know, make an impact in the industry as well as just kind of outside of that. And so, yeah, growing up, you know, I went to school as an accounting major because my dad said I was good at math and I'd be good at accounting. And that did not go well. Right? And so I think back then it was go to college for four years and that's what you do and you know, you get your degree and go at student debt and then they kind of go from there. And I don't know if that's the case. I, so I just wanna inspire others to be the, you know, best version of themselves. And if I can support them in that journey, I'm glad they're gonna do that. Awesome.

Sebastian (20:36):

AJ, thanks so much for chatting with me today.

AJ (20:38):

Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

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